Board of Directors/Minutes/20090912/Transcript
From The Otherkin Community
| Meeting Transcript |
| This is a transcript of a meeting. Portions may have been altered or removed to protect the privacy of members and remove material that does not pertain to the discussion. |
Contents |
[edit] Meeting Duration
22:08:58 <@Clodaus> Alright; I don't have too many topics to discuss tonight. This is primarily a get-together since we haven't done it in a while, to make sure we keep things on track
22:09:06 <@AraAFK_PMme> ok
22:09:07 <@Wraith> Fair enough.
22:09:16 <@Clodaus> We've all been busy, OKC's been essentially at a standstill - which is fine (well, not really, but we can't do much about that atm)
22:09:32 <@Clodaus> But those "standstill "issues are primarily outside the Board
22:09:54 <@Clodaus> And you guys can bring up anything if you'd like once we've covered the short agenda..
22:10:01 <@Wraith> Alrighty.
22:10:04 <@Clodaus> First and most obvious thing - meeting interval
22:10:09 <@Clodaus> Bylaws state bimonthly [see old revision]
22:10:21 <@Clodaus> But, due to how busy we've been, (1) that hasn't happened and (2) is it even necessary?
22:10:43 <@Clodaus> We can always call meetings if we need to
22:10:46 <@Clodaus> What are everyones' thoughts?
22:10:48 <@Wraith> I do not think it is necessary, unless a sever issue suddenly pops up, but we can deal with that when it happens.
22:11:01 <@Wraith> But we should have regular meetings, at least on the books.
22:11:06 <@Clodaus> Yes, definatly
22:11:19 <@AraAFK_PMme> is there a minimum number per year as per legal requirements?
22:11:23 <@Clodaus> We're required to hold meeitngs at least anually, but I wouldn't propose waiting that long
22:11:35 <@Clodaus> Semi-anually mayeb
22:11:37 <@Clodaus> maybe*
22:11:43 <@AraAFK_PMme> In NZ it's once a year minimum
22:12:17 <@Wraith> I think every six months is a bit long.
22:12:19 <@AraAFK_PMme> maybe, every six months as the default, and "when necessary", when necessary?
22:12:24 <@AraAFK_PMme> hrm
22:12:25 <@Wraith> Maybe every four or three months?
22:12:30 <@Clodaus> I was hoping for four
22:12:40 <@Clodaus> Six I agree may be too long
22:12:43 <@Clodaus> A lot can happen
22:12:45 <@AraAFK_PMme> well, four months is good too
22:12:55 <@Clodaus> Once OKC starts getting back on track, we can decrease it more again if needed...can see how it goes
22:12:57 <@Clodaus> or increase
22:13:08 <@Wraith> Well, four is highly reasonable, and we can call emergency meetings, as you said, for the time being.
22:13:24 <@Wraith> Until things start heating up, we can work with that.
22:13:24 <@Clodaus> Alright, we can see how four works then?
22:13:31 <@AraAFK_PMme> sounds good :)
22:13:37 -!- AraAFK_PMme is now known as Nanara
22:16 <@Clodaus> Okay..enxt
[edit] Staff Website
22:16 <@Clodaus> The staff website
22:17 <@Clodaus> Do you guys use it often?
22:17 <@Clodaus> I see 'Ara in there a bit
22:17 <@Wraith> not often, no.
22:17 <@Nanara> um.. I did.. but not recently
22:17 <@Clodaus> I'm trying to figure out the best way to get us organized, with calendar and such
22:17 <@Clodaus> Is it something you guys can see as a useful tool, or should we explore alternatives?
22:18 <@Clodaus> I want to bring the mods in to use it as well, if it's something you feel is helpful
22:18 <@Clodaus> To keep us organized, and to use as a calendar
22:18 <@Nanara> it is a good tool.. just overwhelming at times.. you should see my todo list.. it's horribly long
22:18 <@Clodaus> heh, yeah
22:18 <@Clodaus> But our todo lists will be long wherever we put them ;)
22:18 <@Wraith> I find that is is very useful to have everythign in one separate location, but it is rather... complicated
22:19 <@Clodaus> It does have a slight learning curve
22:19 <@Wraith> I support easy on the eyes and brain format, but I don't think it should be scrapped at all..... just simplified
22:19 <@Nanara> I wouldn't mind figuring out how to sort of squash the list to something smaller, or maybe to just have general projects, like "Board stuff" and "mod stuff", instead of all those seperate projects
22:19 <@Wraith> YES.
22:19 <@Wraith> Please.
22:20 <@Clodaus> Well, I was going to talk about the organization as well
22:20 <@Clodaus> http://staff.otherkincommunity.org/index.php?m=projects
22:20 <@Clodaus> Those are the projects we have at present
22:20 <@Clodaus> Forums /okc.net deals directly with development of the website. wiki / .org, also website development. Corporate is Board stuff. Chat, obviously, chat development
22:21 <@Clodaus> hosting, for blogs and such, Handbook, to deal with the handbook on the wiki
22:21 <@Clodaus> etc
22:21 <@Wraith> It makes my blood run cold.
22:21 <@Nanara> hrm.. is there a way of seperating personal stuff and professional stuff?
22:21 <@Clodaus> The idea is to keep everything separated as such, or it willb ecome an impossible mess. Won't be able to find anything. At work we use this software, and we have over 100 projects
22:21 <@Clodaus> Well
22:22 <@Nanara> like.. my "Update Yana" is a personal goal of mine.. which I should actually tick as done.. seeing as I'm fairly confident at the moment with basic stuff
22:22 <@Wraith> Also, is there a way to organize so that the short-term and long-term projects are separated, and the problem projects are on top?
22:22 <@Clodaus> I was going to bring that up...it'd seem like some of those tasks would be better suited for other projects. Like if you're doing moderation, wouldn't that better fit in with the section devoted to moderation? If it can't fit in any other projects I'd understand, but the "todo" is generally what's used to reference personal tasks
22:23 <@Clodaus> Wraith: the best way to do that would be to figure out a color-coding scheme
22:23 <@Clodaus> Other than that I'd have to add something
22:23 <@Wraith> mmkay.
22:23 <@Clodaus> (then sort by color)
22:24 <@Clodaus> Which is something we really need to do; but what I wanted to discuss here is mostly what we're itnerested in doing
22:24 <@Clodaus> Then we can discuss the rest in the forums
22:25 <@Clodaus> I know it's a bit overwhelming, but if it's perceived as that, then that probably means it's not properly organized
22:25 <@Wraith> ...Well, then I'd have to say it's not properly organized.
22:25 <@Nanara> heh
22:26 <@Nanara> I guess what we need is a standardised system for everyone to use
22:26 <@Clodaus> Yes; especially before bringing in the mods
22:26 <@Nanara> I was trying to figure out the system, and instead just added to the chaos with my own ideas on filing lol
22:26 <@Wraith> One that doesn't make me run screaming.
22:26 <@Wraith> Ah..
22:27 <@Nanara> hehe yes
22:27 <@Clodaus> Well, what's the main problem atm?
22:27 <@Clodaus> main problems8
22:27 <@Clodaus> **
22:28 <@Nanara> too many boxes to put todo things into
22:28 <@Clodaus> (Oh, there is a priority column to sort by as well..but it's very basic..)
22:28 <@Nanara> I'm delorting the ones I no longer need
22:28 <@Clodaus> hmm/
22:28 <@Clodaus> ?*
22:28 <@Clodaus> "boxes"?
22:28 <@Wraith> well, it's pretty much chaotic. It's hard to tell which projects are the most important, and there are too many ctaegories for each indivudal thing.
22:29 <@Nanara> tasks connected to various projects. We have some projects that are specific things like the mod manual, and then general projects like "forum committee"
22:29 <@Clodaus> I'm unsure what you mean by "categories" and "things"
22:29 <@Wraith> Neithert am I Cloddy, that's the problem.
22:30 <@Clodaus> So are you saying there's too many projects, 'Ara?
22:31 <@Nanara> I think yes, and of varying types
22:31 <@Nanara> I think we should either have specific projects, such as the mod manual, OR general projects that specific projects can be filed under
22:31 <@Nanara> such as the mod manual is a task to do with moderation or the forum committee stuff..
22:31 <@Nanara> (if that makes sense)
22:32 <@Clodaus> Well, adding projects as tasks wouldn't make sense to do
22:32 <@Clodaus> Such as mod manual as moderation task
22:32 <@Clodaus> Doing that, the tasks would always be visible
22:32 <@Clodaus> Once it's complete, it couldn't be filed away
22:32 <@Clodaus> And then if you opened the "mod" project, your page would be filled with countlses tasks (subprojects)
22:33 <@Nanara> hrm
22:34 <@Clodaus> The way the software is designed, the concept of subprojects really isn't possible..
22:34 <@Clodaus> So separate projects would always be on the main page
22:34 <@Clodaus> which does suck
22:34 <@Clodaus> Thus the need for color coding and such
22:35 <@Clodaus> I was unable to come across an alternative that was able to do as much as this software, in the manner we're looking for
22:35 <@Nanara> So, perhaps another thing we need to look into is standardised colour coding?
22:35 <@Wraith> So, you're basically telling us to suck it up and learn to work with the format as best we can?'
22:35 <@Nanara> XD
22:35 <@Clodaus> It may help...that way we can sort by color and know "green = this group of projects, hot pink = sexy projects, etc"
22:36 <@Clodaus> Heh, not quite, Wraith; but we do have to work with how the software was designed, or it'd become a mess
22:36 <@Clodaus> But we can still organize it better
22:36 <@Wraith> Well, any little bit of help will HELP, damnit.
22:36 <@Clodaus> Ultimately, nobody will EVER be looking at every project
22:36 <@Clodaus> You'll just be working on a couple
22:36 <@Clodaus> You find it, click, done
22:37 <@Clodaus> So while there may be many of them, it ultimately shouldn't be a problem to find it
22:37 <@Wraith> I'm with you so far.
22:37 <@Clodaus> and the todo will generally have all the tasks you're working
22:37 <@Clodaus> on
22:37 <@Clodaus> At work we have over 50 projects, and I never visit the project page unlses I have to..beacuse it's..complete hell
22:38 <@Clodaus> So I do understand
22:38 <@Nanara> *nods* I usually only look at the "tasks" page because it's too much
22:38 <@Clodaus> I'm just unsure, aside from color coding, much of an alternative
22:38 * Wraith sighs.
22:38 <@Clodaus> tHen the priority column can be used to put important projects at the top
22:38 <@Wraith> Good, good
22:38 <@Clodaus> End date can be used as well
22:39 <@Nanara> is there a "for dummies" manual for using this program efficiently?
22:39 <@Wraith> please say yes
22:39 <@Nanara> I'm still struggling with all the pull down menus and boxes to be ticked and.. fiddly bits... it's just hugely complicated
22:40 <@Clodaus> Yeah I agree..and originally I think it was a german application, so they don't have the best of documentation...I'll check though
22:40 <@Wraith> Thank you.
22:40 <@Clodaus> http://docs.dotproject.net/index.php?title=User_Manual
22:40 <@Clodaus> Not too well formatted, it seems
22:41 <@Wraith> oh, my.
22:41 <@Wraith> Well, better than nothing, I suppose.
22:41 <@Clodaus> There's also a "help" link
22:41 <@Clodaus> At the top of the staff page
22:42 <@Nanara> *twitch* I'll have to try read it when I haven't been reading through the forums and am not rather text'd out
22:42 <@Clodaus> Honestly I think it's easier just to poke around and see what things do, rather than read that
22:42 <@Clodaus> But essentially the workflow is just:
22:42 <@Wraith> NOW you tell me
22:42 <@Clodaus> Click project - Click new tasks (or choose an existing one) - Enter log
22:42 <@Clodaus> Done
22:43 <@Clodaus> You'll never need to really do much else, but use the calendar
22:43 <@Wraith> Fair enough. Appearances are fearsome, though.
22:43 <@Clodaus> No argument there
22:43 <@Nanara> lol
22:43 <@Clodaus> I gave up using it years back, until work reminded me of it
22:44 <@Wraith> Well, I'll set some time away just for poking around the site and getting used to using it.
22:44 <@Clodaus> I'll write up something for you guys
22:44 <@Clodaus> Some example situations - especially for common things like moderating..
22:44 <@Nanara> did you find a way of setting different permissions so that the moderators don't have to see the Board stuff?
22:44 <@Clodaus> I did
22:44 <@Clodaus> Still playing with it
22:44 <@Nanara> score :)
22:45 <@Clodaus> It's a bit iffy, but I'll make it work
22:45 <@Wraith> If anyone can, you can.
22:45 <@Clodaus> The candy man can
22:45 <@Nanara> XD
22:45 <@Clodaus> anyway
22:46 <@Clodaus> k, for example: http://staff.otherkincommunity.org/index.php?m=tasks&a=view&task_id=60
22:46 <@Clodaus> there's our task for waht we're talking about now
22:47 <@Clodaus> As we work on this and decide things, we'll just click "New Log", enter our log, and submit that
22:47 <@Clodaus> If there's a broad category of things we're working on, we click "new task", and that allows you to create hierarchies..so tasks can have children
22:47 <@Clodaus> And we can keep things organized that way
22:47 <@Wraith> Ah, I see.
22:48 <@Clodaus> "New Task" is a button on the upper-right
22:48 <@Clodaus> Like I said, I'll write some stuff up with some screenshots and such
22:48 <@Wraith> I know that one at least, Cloddy. Heh
22:48 <@Clodaus> But ultimately, just look around, create a test project, play around with it, then delete that son of a bitch
22:48 <@Wraith> Can do!
22:48 <@Clodaus> and let me know what, if anything, is too hard to do
22:48 <@Clodaus> And we'll try to work everything out
22:49 <@Wraith> Oh, you bet your ass I will.
22:49 <@Clodaus> If it's unusable, we'll try to find alternatives, or jsut make everyone submit
22:49 <@Clodaus> heh
22:49 <@Nanara> lol
22:49 <@Wraith> Anything else on that front?
22:49 <@Nanara> I suspect once we get the hang of it, it'll be a matter of a little hand holding for the mods and it'll all be sweet
22:50 <@Wraith> One can hope, yes.
22:50 <@Clodaus> Yeah
22:50 <@Clodaus> and I don't believe so..
22:50 <@Clodaus> um
22:50 <@Clodaus> Yeah to 'Ara
22:50 <@Clodaus> 2nd to Warith
22:50 <@Clodaus> Wraith too
22:50 <@Nanara> lol
22:51 <@Wraith> Hey, I didn't know my twin was here.
22:51 <@Wraith> Anyway, what's the next topic?
22:51 <@Clodaus> Some interesting little thing I found...can ask if there's any uses for it..one sec
22:52 <@Wraith> alright.
22:52 <@Nanara> there were a couple of issues brought up at the mod meeting, but I was going to wait until you're done Clody :)
22:52 <@Wraith> nice.
22:52 <@Nanara> XD
22:52 <@Clodaus> okay
22:53 <@Clodaus> okay
22:53 <@Clodaus> http://desktop.otherkincommunity.net
22:53 <@Clodaus> It's something interesting I found...
22:54 <@Clodaus> Essentailly a desktop in a web browser..companies use it to run programs and stuff for their businesses from any computer
22:54 <@Clodaus> Has a word processer, calendar, email, la de da...lots of other stuff to download...so
22:54 <@Nanara> ooooh
22:54 <@Wraith> I absoluetely love the formatting on this... I wish the staff website were this user friendly
22:55 <@Clodaus> Can play around with that (just don't screw around much in the admin section)
22:55 <@Nanara> *pokes* :D
22:55 <@Clodaus> And the idea with this would be that I'd just create programs in here to do moderation, etc
22:55 <@Wraith> See, why isn't the staff website like this?! D:
22:55 <@Clodaus> Because these people are smarter
22:55 <@Clodaus> the only problem is, the calendar is too simple, lacking a bit, and we can't do tasks with it
22:56 <@Nanara> question... is there an application in this desktop thing that we can use instead of the staff site?
22:56 <@Clodaus> And I don't have the time to write an entire project management app for this
22:56 <@Clodaus> So we'll still be stuck with taht
22:56 <@Nanara> ahhh
22:56 <@Clodaus> I'd have to look around more, 'Ara
22:56 <@Clodaus> It's called eyeOs, if you guys want to look as well
22:56 <@Nanara> damn.. because that'd be so pretty and so much easier to use
22:56 <@Wraith> Sure, dangle heaven in front of us, then send us back to shovel in hell.
22:56 <@Clodaus> haha
22:56 <@Clodaus> It is pretty sweet, huh
22:56 <@Wraith> ~.~
22:56 <@Clodaus> I had a field day
22:57 <@Clodaus> There has to be something though..
22:57 <@Clodaus> Worst case, can make something simple
22:58 <@Nanara> if it's open source, surely there'd be people who like making mods for such a program
22:58 <@Clodaus> It is, but it's not highly popular yet
22:58 <@Clodaus> and many that do use it for business purposes may not release their project management software for others to use
22:58 <@Clodaus> but ideally - I'd love to use this instead of the staff website
22:58 <@Clodaus> This has countless benefits
22:58 <@Wraith> YOU THINK?
22:59 <@Wraith> Ahem.
22:59 <@Clodaus> You can even play sonic the hedgehog ini t.
22:59 <@Clodaus> in it.*
22:59 <@Clodaus> heh
22:59 <@Wraith> ....
22:59 <@Clodaus> (Runs flash games)
22:59 <@Nanara> :D
22:59 <@Wraith> Clodaus.... I will threaten bodily harm if we do not do something with this program.
22:59 <@Clodaus> I'd integrate this with the forum logins, and all mods would have acess as well
22:59 <@Nanara> hehehe
22:59 <@Clodaus> lol
23:00 <@Clodaus> Like I said, I want to
23:00 <@Clodaus> It's just going to be a lot of work
23:00 <@Clodaus> Oh
23:00 <@Nanara> damnit we need another code monkey on staff
23:00 <@Clodaus> Yes I need a great deal of help with programming ._.
23:02 <@Wraith> But this could be just for mod/admin/official use.
23:02 <@Clodaus> Yeah it would be, Wraith
23:03 <@Clodaus> Eventually it may be a nice service to provide to some members, but not for some time
23:03 <@Nanara> hrmm... *plots devilishly*
23:03 <@Nanara> could be a paid member bonus perhaps?
23:03 * Wraith eyes Cloddy, holding a cleaver.
23:03 <@Clodaus> Heh, good idea
23:03 <@Wraith> Oh! That's a great idea!
23:03 <@Wraith> :D
23:03 <@Nanara> ohh.. in fact I'll put that as a note on that particular project thingie
23:03 <@Clodaus> http://www.eyeos.org/
23:04 <@Clodaus> If you guys have ever used openoffice..apparently that can also run in eyeos
23:04 <@Clodaus> Didn't have the time to get it working; only tried briefly
23:04 <@Wraith> I have not, anyway.
23:05 <@Nanara> Ohhh
23:05 <@Nanara> I have
23:05 <@Nanara> it's just like msoffice but better
23:05 <@Wraith> Indeed.
23:05 <@Nanara> which means there should be a compatible more useful tasks/calendar program out there
23:06 <@Clodaus> Well
23:06 <@Clodaus> Normal programs don't work in eyeos
23:06 <@Clodaus> They have to be made for eyeos
23:06 <@Clodaus> Someone made something to get openoffice working, but probably not fully
23:07 <@Nanara> ohh.. :( bummer... and an emulator within an emulator would just suck.. heh.. I might see if my brother has heard of eyeos and if he knows of more fun toys to add.. I doubt he'd have the time to add to it
23:08 <@Clodaus> I can definatly keep my eye out though
23:08 <@Clodaus> And who knows, maybe 6 months from now it'll have something
23:08 <@Wraith> Same.
23:08 <@Nanara> too true :)
23:08 <@Wraith> Heh, we should be so lucky
23:08 <@Clodaus> I found out about it in a Linux magazine - so it's getting publicity
23:08 <@Clodaus> And open source projects move very quickly
23:09 <@Clodaus> Alright
23:09 <@Clodaus> We can continue discussing that one in the Director forums
[edit] Experiences Forum
23:09 <@Clodaus> what'd you want to talk about, 'Ara?
23:09 <@Nanara> um
23:09 <@Nanara> there were two issues brought up by the mod meeting
23:09 <@Nanara> and I have one of my own as well
23:09 <@Nanara> http://otherkincommunity.net/topic2909
23:10 <@Nanara> that's the minutes link
23:10 <@Nanara> #6. was something needed to be put forward
23:11 <@Nanara> [USERNAME REMOVED] had a request for a seperate area to share/discuss specifical magickal practises as a resource.. I guess kind of like a Community Book of Shadows
23:11 <@Clodaus> To prevent reiterating - has everyone read my response to that suggestion?
23:11 <@Clodaus> (I'll have more to say I'm sure)
23:11 <@Nanara> um
23:12 <@Wraith> I did when it happened, I must re-read it
23:12 <@Nanara> I was thinking of suggesting that we actually have a completely seperate area for beliefs and magick and that sort of stuff
23:13 <@Clodaus> If we do add it, I would agree that it'd have to be entirely separate
23:13 <@Clodaus> Is it a service we'd want to provide?
23:13 <@Nanara> metaphysics is supposed to be about the study of metaphysical things.. it's a science.. where as magick can be put into a scientific experience and studied.. but he wanted an area to explore experiences and subjective beliefs and the like.
23:14 <@Clodaus> Because, I've been around those forums in the past. They post random crap that is not only physically impossible, but will give us a horrible, horrible name
23:14 <@Nanara> well... I personally would like it because it's something we're sorely lacking.. but... would it be compatible with the overall focus and goals of the community?
23:14 <@Clodaus> I'm not saying all of it would be - but much of it
23:14 <@Nanara> yes
23:14 <@Nanara> that is one of my worries as well
23:14 <@Clodaus> It is something I did want to try to incorporate in the past
23:14 <@Clodaus> But I was unable to figure out how without it being all fluff
23:14 <@Wraith> I think ti should eb considered. I knwo that a lot of our members practice magick and similar, and we might as well meet some of their needs.
23:15 <@Clodaus> Since we can already discuss experiences in the metaphysical forums
23:15 <@Wraith> But what about actual rituals, and discussions on how to modify them and such?
23:15 <@Clodaus> I do feel as though we should provide that - since we cater to the intellectual
23:15 <@Wraith> I think we should consider this separate section.
23:15 <@Clodaus> but..how?
23:15 <@Clodaus> We can't filter anything otu
23:15 <@Clodaus> out8
23:15 <@Clodaus> **
23:16 <@Clodaus> We have no proof they can't do what they claim, and we can't call them crazy
23:16 <@Clodaus> They may even be right!
23:16 <@Clodaus> Even if it sounds insane
23:16 <@Nanara> and.. it's not safe to discuss beliefs on OKC.. they just get ripped to shreds, I don't share my magickal experience because of this.. because I can't "proove" it, so it's not worth sharing it... so there's two extremes that this situation brings up
23:16 <@Clodaus> But if outside readers read here about summoning demons and shit, they'll be turned off, and we'll get a bad name
23:16 <@Wraith> We can have it simply as a member only forum.
23:17 <@Clodaus> But remember, Wraith - our members aren't all going to be 'kin
23:17 <@Clodaus> Or practitioners
23:17 <@Nanara> what we need perhaps is a way to keep the crazy shit under control
23:17 <@Wraith> We can have strong regulations - "enter at your own risk and remember that nothing can be proven".
23:17 <@Clodaus> Ideally, I want it to be a 50/50 split between skeptics and actual practitioners
23:17 <@Wraith> This world is not ideal, Cloddy.
23:18 <@Clodaus> I don't see how we can regulate it though
23:18 <@Nanara> *nods* have a strong disclaimer. Including no discussion of "harmful" magicks.. we don't want some noob finding out why modern practitioners don't generally summon "demons"
23:18 <@Nanara> hrm
23:18 <@Clodaus> I think before deciding on whether or not we should do this, we should deicde how it can be kept under control
23:18 <@Wraith> Well, yes.
23:19 <@Nanara> it's such a difficult subject.. the thing is [USERNAME REMOVED] is already doing this, he's put his own thread up called it a "BOS" and we're not able to do anything about now
23:19 <@Clodaus> As of now, yes, it's outside the Community's goals. So we'd also need to determine if it should be added
23:19 <@Clodaus> Honestly, I want to add it. But also, I don't beleive it can be, unless we get really creative
23:19 <@Nanara> *nods* I agree Clody
23:20 <@Clodaus> suggested was an "experiences" forum
23:20 <@Clodaus> Rituals and practices could be discussed there, and input could be provided, within the current bounds of our rules and regulations
23:20 <@Clodaus> people would criticize, people would believe and help out
23:20 <@Nanara> so how can we moderate it effectively? 1. Disclaimer stating that it's a subjective part of the forum, that it's belief and should be treated as such, 2. Disclaimer for no posts outlining harmful magicks, such as demonic summoning, (perhaps summoning in general), sex magick, blood magick, death magick.. all that sort of thing?
23:20 <@Clodaus> And it'd allow the discussion, evaluation and construction of that material...so does that solve the issue at hand?
23:20 <@Nanara> hrm.. awesome
23:21 <@Clodaus> Because, none of this is proven
23:21 <@Clodaus> All of this IS an experience
23:21 <@Clodaus> And extremely subjective
23:21 <@Wraith> At the least, it will encourage honest discussion and discourage "omfg i summoned gods dude".
23:22 <@Clodaus> We could make it more lax, as 'Ara suggested
23:22 <@Clodaus> But I think it should still allow criticism
23:22 <@Wraith> Staying away from outright labels will make things much easier....
23:22 <@Wraith> critism is good.
23:22 <@Clodaus> I just don't want a "Telekinesis" subforum again, or things like that, since I don't want OKC to condone it
23:22 <@Nanara> criticism I have no problem with, it's the complete and utter shredding of anything remotely subjective that I have the problem with on this particular topic
23:22 <@Nanara> *nods*
23:23 <@Nanara> I also think if we model the kinds of behaviour we expect from folks people will come into line, if we discourage the nutters, they'll hopefully be kept to a minimum
23:23 <@Clodaus> well
23:23 <@Clodaus> Would it be a problem..
23:23 <@Clodaus> Experiences
23:23 <@Clodaus> |
23:23 <@Clodaus> TK MagicK
23:23 <@Clodaus> etc
23:23 <@Clodaus> as subforums
23:23 <@Clodaus> idk..
23:24 <@Clodaus> Obvioulsy we'd need some structure
23:24 <@Clodaus> (oops didn't see your last reply ara)
23:24 <@Nanara> How about more general, like: Magick, Spirituality, Psionics?
23:24 <@Nanara> :)
23:24 <@Wraith> we could skip the use of "magick" and say things like "ritual" and "metaphysical practices"
23:24 <@Clodaus> I agree with keeping it as vague as possible
23:24 <@Clodaus> well
23:24 <@Clodaus> As in what Wraith is saying
23:25 <@Nanara> *nods* good point as the Magick label has it's own kinds of fluff attached
23:25 <@Clodaus> And I have no problem with Spirituality and Psionics
23:25 <@Clodaus> But is Spirituality too general?
23:25 <@Wraith> I've been supporting a "spirituality" section for ages, so I'm biased.
23:25 <@Nanara> Well, then it covers all kinds of belief, Religion is too narrow
23:25 <@Wraith> Agreed.
23:25 <@Clodaus> Now I'm just being picky - we can discuss specifics like that in detail later..we just want a general idea
23:25 <@Nanara> hehe
23:25 <@Clodaus> That is true
23:25 <@Nanara> so.. yes to a whole new "Experiences" forum area?
23:26 <@Wraith> I think it's something worth doing.
23:26 <@Wraith> We just have to eb careful with it at first.
23:26 <@Wraith> *be
23:26 <@Nanara> *nods*
23:26 <@Clodaus> As long as it's kept to personal experiences, then yes
23:26 <@Clodaus> Since that single constraint will prevent things like "how to summon demons"
23:26 <@Wraith> well.... technically we could have have someone claiming just that
23:27 <@Clodaus> We could, yes
23:27 <@Clodaus> But unless they provided substantial evidence, they'd be torn to shreds
23:27 <@Clodaus> Which is not a good things
23:27 <@Clodaus> thing*
23:27 <@Clodaus> But it's also a good thing..
23:27 <@Clodaus> idk!
23:27 <@Clodaus> constructive criticism good
23:27 <@Clodaus> "you dumbass" bad
23:27 <@Wraith> This is where [CERTAIN MEMBERS] come in handy.
23:27 <@Clodaus> Yep
23:27 <@Clodaus> heh
23:27 <@Nanara> Or we could just state that the discussion of demon summoning and similar harmful Arts is something that is banned for the safety of newbies?
23:27 <@Nanara> hehe
23:28 <@Clodaus> I'm sorta okay with that, Ara'..just not so specific
23:28 <@Clodaus> Or we'll sound crazy
23:28 <@Wraith> I think that outright limiting discussions like that could cause other problems.
23:28 <@Nanara> such as wraithy?
23:29 <@Wraith> First, freedom of speech, then there are those who would actually want to discuss such things in an intelligent manner (unlikely, but hey)
23:29 <@Wraith> I think vague is good.
23:29 <@Clodaus> I don't see it much different than "No discussing practical ways of killing people with a hand knife"
23:29 <@Clodaus> Well
23:29 <@Clodaus> I think we should only constrain here what we would on other topics
23:29 <@Wraith> Stab the gut and thrust up?
23:29 <@Clodaus> Perfect.
23:30 <@Wraith> Fine by me.
23:30 <@Nanara> XD hehe
23:30 <@Clodaus> If we wouldn't allow discussion on using handguns in the forums, we shouldn't allow discussion on using energy to hurt someone
23:30 <@Nanara> *nods*
23:30 <@Clodaus> That's not why we're here
23:30 <@Wraith> well, then state just that "no discussing using energy/metaphysics for harm"
23:30 <@Wraith> but leave out specific acts.
23:30 <@Clodaus> Something like that would be fine
23:30 <@Nanara> or discussing practises that could be harmful to a practitioner
23:30 <@Nanara> ?
23:31 <@Wraith> yes, good.
23:31 <@Nanara> because real demonic summoning =BAD KARMA
23:31 <@Clodaus> or whoever's on the receiving end of it
23:31 <@Clodaus> not just practitioner ;)
23:31 <@Wraith> xD I think we get the gist of things, yes?
23:31 <@Clodaus> hehe yep
23:32 <@Wraith> Well. Anything else on that front?
23:32 <@Clodaus> I do't think so
23:32 <@Clodaus> Everyone okay on experiences forum?
23:33 <@Wraith> Yes, provided strict regulations and the "do not harm" rule.
23:33 <@Nanara> yep
23:33 <@Wraith> Alrighty.
23:33 <@Wraith> Next?
23:33 <@Nanara> ok.. so we need a new thread in the mod forums for discussing the specifics of that one
23:33 <@Nanara> um.. and next
[edit] Moderation of "Trolls"
23:34 <@Nanara> the reassessing of banning real bad trolls earlier than the three warnings process
23:35 <@Clodaus> I'm still for treating trolls no different than any other member
23:35 <@Nanara> I'm personally on the fence.. but I think their argument was specifically to do with trolls like [USERNAME REMOVED] who wasn't adding anything constructive, just simply abusing the living snot out of us
23:36 <@Nanara> that the abusive ones with nothing helpful to add could be identified and banned immediately.
23:36 <@Wraith> The problem is the sheer amoutnt of damage they can cause in three warnings. If nothing constructive or helpful is gained, why let them continue to have the run of the place?
23:36 <@Wraith> I tend to want to boot the ones out for nothing but harm.
23:36 <@Clodaus> If they're not posting anything constructive and breaking the rules, they'll be banned regardless
23:36 <@Nanara> I'm personally torn between the need to treat everyone the same, and the need to minimise abuse from shitty people who have no useful thing to add to the community
23:36 <@Clodaus> Three rules was never a requirement
23:37 <@Nanara> ?
23:37 <@Clodaus> If you look at the Rules & Regulations, it rarely states that
23:37 <@Nanara> o.O
23:37 <@Nanara> oh?
23:37 <@Wraith> hmm?
23:37 <@Clodaus> one sec
23:37 <@Clodaus> http://otherkincommunity.org/wiki/Rules_%26_Regulations
23:37 <@Clodaus> Many say "Warning (#-)"
23:37 <@Nanara> but the procedure is three warnings, 3 day temp suspention and on final warning full ban
23:37 <@Clodaus> meaning "# or less"
23:37 <@Nanara> o.O ohhh
23:37 <@Clodaus> things in [brackets] are optional
23:38 <@Clodaus> So some don't even require warnigns
23:38 <@Clodaus> It's just good practice to give warnigns
23:38 <@Clodaus> I think those need to be revised though
23:38 <@Clodaus> I created those long ago
23:38 <@Clodaus> By myself
23:38 * Wraith pats.
23:38 <@Clodaus> We have input from you guys and experience to work off of now
23:39 <@Clodaus> Regardless, however, I am against immediate ban if they just look annyoing
23:39 <@Clodaus> What damage could they possibly cause/
23:39 <@Clodaus> Last troll, Mario, was just attacked back
23:39 <@Clodaus> We held our ground jsut fine
23:39 <@Nanara> Ok.. so.. if the mods just want to ban someone they just need a majority? That's a big ass opportunity for abuse..
23:39 <@Clodaus> Then they left
23:39 <@Clodaus> We didn't need to do much of anything
23:39 <@Clodaus> Like I said...needs to be revisited..
23:39 <@Nanara> heh
23:39 <@Clodaus> And no not for all of them..
23:40 <@Clodaus> Most require at least one warning..
23:40 <@Nanara> ok.. so, what kind of revision do we need?
23:40 <@Clodaus> We need to sit down during one of these meetings and have a fun old time going through all of them
23:40 <@Clodaus> Or do it on the forums, but it'll never get done that way
23:40 <@Nanara> well, obviously it wouldn't be fair to just bannate someone without at least giving them an informal warning...
23:40 <@Nanara> *twitch*
23:40 <@Nanara> heh that's true
23:41 <@Wraith> Alright, before we go any further, let's schedule that particular meeting date and move on.
23:41 <@Clodaus> I was going to suggest that
23:41 <@Nanara> :)
23:41 <@Wraith> We cannot possibly do all of that right now.
23:41 <@Clodaus> Is everyone free a couple weekends from now?
23:41 <@Clodaus> check your eyeos calendar
23:41 <@Clodaus> 26th
23:42 <@Nanara> um 26th is fine
23:43 <@Wraith> 26th should be good.... I have an active month though, so I'll keep myself posted.
23:44 <@Clodaus> Let us know if you can't make it, we'll rechedule
23:44 <@Clodaus> reschedule*
23:44 <@Wraith> can do.
23:44 <@Clodaus> Same time?
23:44 <@Clodaus> 10:00? Or is earlier preferred/
23:44 <@Wraith> how early can you make it?
23:44 <@Clodaus> I'd prefer around 8:00/9:00
23:44 <@Clodaus> but
23:44 <@Clodaus> up to you guys
23:45 <@Wraith> I'd prefer as early as possible.
23:45 <@Clodaus> Technically whenever
23:45 <@Clodaus> But I want 'Ara to get some sleep
23:45 <@Wraith> Indeed. Yana?
23:45 <@Nanara> hehe
23:46 <@Nanara> um, no earlier than about 6pm your time.. though I'll have to check again, as daylight savings is coming up soon for us
23:46 <@Clodaus> What would you say is a safe time?
23:46 <@Clodaus> One you're comfortable with and won't be half-dead for
23:47 <@Nanara> um
23:47 <@Nanara> no earlier than 10am my time
23:47 <@Nanara> which currently is 6pm your time
23:47 <@Wraith> well.... how about 7pm then?
23:47 <@Clodaus> Do you want to go for 7:00 to make it safe/
23:47 <@Nanara> but when day light savings starts here that'll be.. either an hour earlier or later
23:47 <@Clodaus> Shh
23:47 <@Wraith> Give you an extra hour
23:48 <@Nanara> 7 is probably good incase the day light savings makes it earlier than it should be
23:48 <@Clodaus> If your decision changes then let us know and we can try to bump it an hour
23:48 <@Wraith> I said it first, cloddy.
23:48 <@Wraith> <.<
23:48 <@Clodaus> I was thinking it.
23:48 <@Wraith> Yes.
23:48 <@Nanara> hehe
23:48 <@Clodaus> Okay
23:48 <@Clodaus> I'll schedule for 7
23:48 <@Clodaus> I wish I could use eyeos
23:48 <@Nanara> ok :3
23:48 <@Wraith> okay, 7pm on the 26th of September?
23:48 <@Clodaus> Expect a 2-3 hr long meeting
23:48 <@Clodaus> hehe
23:49 <@Wraith> I'm expecting longer, actually
23:49 <@Clodaus> ._. hopefully not
23:49 <@Wraith> Alrighty.
23:49 <@Clodaus> but we'll see
23:49 * Nanara cackles insanely
23:49 <@Nanara> that day.. for me it's sunday.. that's the first day of daylight savings for us XD
23:50 <@Clodaus> heh
23:50 <@Clodaus> Is 7:00 still goood?
23:50 <@Clodaus> good*
23:50 <@Nanara> yes
23:50 <@Nanara> unless your day light savings goes off between now and then that makes it midday my time so that's fine
23:50 <@Clodaus> Okay
23:50 <@Clodaus> Do we want to discuss the troll thing then, then/
23:50 <@Clodaus> ?*
23:50 <@Clodaus> Whenw e have a clearer idea of what's going on/
23:51 <@Clodaus> ?* DAMNIT
23:51 <@Nanara> um.. we might be brain dead after that?
23:51 <@Clodaus> heh, alright
23:51 <@Clodaus> Well, we can come to a decision now if you'd like
23:51 <@Clodaus> I still hold that we treat them no differently
23:52 <@Wraith> I still have issues on the fence with this.
23:52 <@Clodaus> If they break a rule, they break a rule, and they'll evenetually get banned for it
23:52 <@Clodaus> I don't want to ban them for being annoying
23:52 <@Nanara> I guess the issue is whether leaving them to dig their own hole or not is dependant on the damage they could create in the mean time?
23:52 <@Clodaus> Well remember
23:52 <@Clodaus> If they're doing actual damage, we can temporarily suspend them to await a moderation decision
23:52 <@Clodaus> That's a polciy we decided on a while back
23:52 <@Nanara> *nods* too true
23:52 <@Wraith> And THEN boot them, if necessary?
23:53 <@Nanara> It would have to be a case-by-case situation
23:53 <@Clodaus> If it's ban worthy according to our Rules & Regulations, without bias to their troll-ness? ;)
23:53 <@Wraith> Alas, I shall have to live with that.
23:53 <@Clodaus> lol
23:53 <@Clodaus> Well if you disagree at least speak against it so we can make fun of you
23:53 <@Nanara> I'm torn with this issue
23:54 <@Wraith> I don't believe an obvious destructive troll should have the run of the place, suspensions or no.
23:54 <@Clodaus> But I strongly feel that with the way we moderate, our policies work equally as well on trolls
23:54 <@Nanara> I don't want to give the trolls special treatment but just bannating them for being [****]s.. because that's not how we are, and, that's what other communities do and they get any number of more trolls than we do
23:54 <@Clodaus> And that exceptions are unnecsesary
23:55 <@Clodaus> They won't be able to have the run of the place, since our rulse don't allow it
23:55 <@Clodaus> rules*
23:55 <@Nanara> except in extreme situations. If someone's posting porn and sexually destructive material we pwn them immediately..
23:55 <@Clodaus> The only way that'd happen is if no mods are available
23:55 <@Wraith> True, and we are working on that, heh (at Clod)
23:56 <@Clodaus> damn, I was just about to unhide the porn forums too
23:56 <@Wraith> Well, as long as the Community as a whole--WHAT
23:56 <@Nanara> the problem with that system is that they won't get stood on until the process works efficiently. Currently it's at least 24-48 hours before any actual action is made..
23:56 <@Clodaus> kidding.. >.>
23:56 <@Clodaus> But if we just go ahead and ban them, they'll create a new account
23:56 <@Clodaus> and then we'l have to deal with that
23:56 <@Nanara> that's 1-2 days of them stomping around..
23:56 <@Clodaus> It's easier to deal with one account, and hope they leave on their own
23:56 <@Nanara> good point..
23:57 <@Nanara> arg.. it's such a crap situation
23:57 <@Clodaus> If they leave by us forcing them to, they'll just keep coming back until they wear out. So I'd prefer to follow procedure to prevent that
23:57 <@Wraith> What I am concerned about is the community's reaction. If they are able to handle it, the trolls dig their own holes. But what if they actually are causing damage to the forums and the morale of the members?
23:57 <@Clodaus> I'm not saying give them special treatment by not banning, I'm just saying do ntohing diffeerntly
23:57 <@Clodaus> We do the same thing as we do with other members
23:57 <@Clodaus> If someone's causing emotional distress, we warn/ban 'em
23:58 * Wraith sighs and rubs head.
23:58 <@Clodaus> But with [USERNAME REMOVED], they handled it very well
23:58 <@Clodaus> I really don't see how the situation's any different
23:58 <@Nanara> they did, but was it necessary to allow him to abuse everyone like that?
23:58 <@Wraith> I'm talking about if they DON'T handle the situaiton well.
23:58 <@Wraith> YES.
23:58 <@Clodaus> Other members have done far wrose
23:58 <@Clodaus> worse*
23:58 <@Clodaus> We handled it the same
23:59 <@Nanara> I think one of my other concerns is that there were some anecdotal complaints that we didn't handle him at all.. that we let him get away with it
23:59 <@Nanara> I know the Helpers weren't too happy that we didn't immediately bannate him
23:59 <@Clodaus> He'd get away with it regardless
23:59 <@Wraith> Well, they're helpers still, they have to run with us.
--- Day changed Sun Sep 13 2009
00:00 <@Clodaus> Banning him means he succeded in making a riot
00:00 <@Clodaus> When you troll some place, you're looking for a reaction
00:00 <@Clodaus> Trying to make a point
00:00 <@Nanara> it can also mean "we're not taking this bullshit from you troll, leave now"
00:00 <@Clodaus> If you get owned by other members, not even the mods, then you just feel like an ass
00:00 <@Clodaus> Yeah, but then they'll just come back
00:00 <@Nanara> Oh, I understand your point Clody-dear, that's my problem, I can see from both positions and I agree with both.. that's my problem
00:01 <@Wraith> And if you aren't "owned"? If you actually do cause damage?
00:01 <@Clodaus> I used to troll chats and such when I was young, and I'd just keep coming back
00:01 <@Clodaus> Then you get banned
00:01 <@Clodaus> Like any other
00:01 * Wraith headdesks.
00:01 <@Nanara> well, you're not the only one who has trolled in the past.. though I had a very short attension span in that time
00:01 <@Wraith> My point is, ban them before they cause the damage.
00:01 <@Wraith> BEFORE.
00:02 <@Clodaus> But then they create a new account and just do it again - but banning BEFORE is highly against our ethical standing
00:02 <@Nanara> well... in the case of [USERNAME REMOVED], it was fairly obvious he was a troll.. lol
00:02 <@Wraith> I can see I am not going to make any headway in this argument.
00:02 <@Clodaus> But in the past we've thought some to be trolls, and they turned out not to be
00:02 <@Nanara> I mean.. who claims that they're the incarnation of [REMOVED]? XD
00:03 <@Clodaus> I've seen much worse, and they weren't trolls. _.
00:03 <@Clodaus> ._.*
00:03 <@Nanara> true
00:04 <@Nanara> Ok, how about a motion to make it possible for the mod staff to bananate on a case by case situation? Under a lot of supervision?
00:04 <@Nanara> only in the case of a severe troll?
00:05 <@Clodaus> I still believe altering the Rules & Regulations, including the necessary language to be followed by everone (including trolls), is better than adding an exception
00:05 <@Clodaus> It can get too messy and can be abused
00:05 <@Nanara> I agree that doing a pre-emptive strike isn't really ethical.. but perhaps the moment a troll admits to being a troll and is still being abusive... oh nvm
00:05 <@Nanara> hrm
00:05 <@Wraith> Well, I can see this as an all-or-nothing situation.
00:05 <@Nanara> it is easier to get abused if we put in an exception
00:05 <@Clodaus> It seems the main worry here is the damage
00:06 <@Nanara> yes
00:06 <@Clodaus> If they cause damage, they get banned, and if needed, thread can be deleted
00:06 <@Clodaus> People invovled will get over it
00:06 <@Clodaus> If they can't handle a little pressure from someone calling them crazy, then they probably can't handle real life
00:06 <@Clodaus> Harsh, but really..
00:06 <@Wraith> Damn straight.
00:06 <@Nanara> lol.. hardass Clody..
00:07 <@Clodaus> We can't spend our time babysitting
00:07 <@Wraith> that's certainly not in my job description.
00:07 <@Nanara> ok.. that actually reminds me of another issue that got brought up in the mod meeting.. deleting the threads of trolls
00:07 <@Wraith> oh yes
00:07 <@Nanara> [USERNAME REMOVED] was real focused on the idea that leaving [TROLL]'s threads up in the open for everyone to see was somehow insulting to the forum
00:08 <@Wraith> the "shows the community can be level-headed and handle themselves" versus "we don't need to be reminded of that nonsense".
00:08 <@Nanara> I didn't see the problem.. but.. I said I'd bring it up so we can have a decision
00:08 <@Clodaus> We may want to come to a decision on the pervious one first, as I may need to get out of here shortly.
00:08 <@Nanara> yeah
00:08 <@Nanara> ohh
00:08 <@Nanara> we did didn't we? that we can ban folks who are doing damage without having to go immediately through the 3-warning system.. but only if damage is being done?
00:08 <@Clodaus> That issue I can just provide my vote on now if needed and have you guys do the remaining votes, since I voiced my opinion on that in the forums
00:09 <@Clodaus> heh I never said that
00:09 <@Nanara> ok
00:09 <@Wraith> Okay okay backtrack, which issue are we voting on now?
00:09 <@Clodaus> trolls, banning
00:09 <@Wraith> Well, we've discussed that we can't have any exceptions, and if we want perfect equality....
00:10 <@Wraith> My wish would be voted out ;)
00:10 <@Clodaus> My suggsetions is to alter the Rules & Regulations during our next meeting, if needed, but no make exceptions to it
00:10 <@Clodaus> not*
00:10 <@Nanara> that sounds reasonable, then we have a system to meet both points of view
00:10 <@Wraith> So, the rules stand as they are now, with the no exceptions and the three warnings before ban?
00:11 <@Clodaus> And, NOT look at it as "trolls"
00:11 <@Clodaus> Leave the term "troll" out of it, it's entirely irrelevant
00:11 <@Wraith> Understood.
00:11 <@Clodaus> Rule is a rule is a rule
00:11 <@Clodaus> Alright..so essentially
00:11 <@Clodaus> Hold off for now, then make any adjustments on the 26th?
00:12 <@Wraith> fine, then.
00:12 <@Nanara> ok.
00:12 <@Clodaus> Okay
00:12 <@Clodaus> And regarding the other issue of deleitng posts
00:12 <@Nanara> was there anything to add to the deleting of threads by trolls thing?
00:13 <@Wraith> mindjinx.
00:13 <@Nanara> XD hehe
00:13 <@Clodaus> I don't think it's needed unless they really posted something we'd never allow
00:13 <@Clodaus> I don't like censorship
00:13 <@Nanara> what do you think wraithy?
00:13 <@Wraith> And we always have the option of locking a thread so others don't add to any possible nonsense.
00:14 <@Wraith> As Cloddy, says, in the end it boils down to cencorship, and that I cannot really support.
00:14 <@Nanara> ok, so we're unanamous about that one
00:14 <@Nanara> cool.. issue closed.. sweet
00:14 <@Clodaus> Great :)
